Discussion:
New Efficient AC
(too old to reply)
erich
2005-03-26 11:34:16 UTC
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Dear Folks:

This is the biggest break through in AC I've seen. My only question is
if there is a maintainence issue with the build up of deposits of any
sorts in the channels due to poor water quality.

http://www.coolerado.com/NewsAndNotable/DelphiIdalexCoolerado.htm
Posted at: http://www.groupsrv.com

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Greg Neill
2005-03-26 13:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by erich
This is the biggest break through in AC I've seen. My only question is
if there is a maintainence issue with the build up of deposits of any
sorts in the channels due to poor water quality.
http://www.coolerado.com/NewsAndNotable/DelphiIdalexCoolerado.htm
Posted at: http://www.groupsrv.com
"The Coolerado Cooler uses a thermodynamic cycle called the Maisotsenko
Cycle. The Maisotsenko Cycle is a thermodynamic cycle that capitalizes
on a natural, clean, energy or psychrometric energy found in our
atmosphere."

Riiiiight. Load of crap.
The Ghost In The Machine
2005-03-26 19:00:09 UTC
Permalink
In sci.physics, Greg Neill
<***@OVE.THIS.netcom.ca>
wrote
on Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:23:24 -0500
Post by Greg Neill
Post by erich
This is the biggest break through in AC I've seen. My only question is
if there is a maintainence issue with the build up of deposits of any
sorts in the channels due to poor water quality.
http://www.coolerado.com/NewsAndNotable/DelphiIdalexCoolerado.htm
Posted at: http://www.groupsrv.com
"The Coolerado Cooler uses a thermodynamic cycle called the Maisotsenko
Cycle. The Maisotsenko Cycle is a thermodynamic cycle that capitalizes
on a natural, clean, energy or psychrometric energy found in our
atmosphere."
Riiiiight. Load of crap.
The question is: does it work? Testimonials notwithstanding, I for
one would propose an experiment, in three of six identically
configured rooms along a row (the other two are there to thermally
isolate the rooms from another side of the building):

[1] A Coolerado cooler.
[2] A standard A/C unit of the adiabatic/isothermal
compression/expansion cycle.
[3] A "swamp cooler", which is basically a unit that allows dry
outside air to flow through a wet mesh; the air cools
and humidifies. Such units are fairly common in desert locales.
And yes, they're subject to deposits, unless one uses distilled
water.
[4] A control room, in the sense of being an experimental control,
that is (although a monitoring room might be placed somewhere
else in the building); this room would contain no cooling
apparatus under test.

Rooms would also have fans and such to get them to the same
temperature prior to the actual test; there might also
be pipework in the walls which would not be part of the
experiment proper, but would simply be used to cool or heat
the rooms prior to the test. There would also be a number
of thermometers and hygrometers scattered around each room,
taking measurements during the test. Power meters would
also be installed, and their measurements taken after and
possibly during the test.

No doubt this sort of stuff is routinely done during testing of new
air conditioning units anyway.

The description given by the Weblink above suggests that the Coolerado
is nothing more than a garden-variety swamp cooler. An excerpt:

The HMX is the key component in the air conditioner
that uses water as the medium for cooling. In
addition, the air conditioner does not use a
compressor or chemical refrigerants, and the only
electricity required is for a fan to move air.
The HMX works by saturating a working air stream
with water that incrementally pulls heat away
from both the product and working air streams
through unique flow path geometries. The result
is unprecedented economical and energy efficient
cooling.

A more sophisticated explanation, however, suggests that there's
more to it than that:

http://www.idalex.com/technology/

I think there's something there, though I for one would hope that
the above explanations avoid terms such as "psychrometic energy".
The Idalex link also makes no mention at all of whether the
air ("product") flowing through its system condenses at all,
interfering with the ability to cool. And yes, it turns out they
do, unfortunately, use the term "psychrometic energy".
The term is not in dictionary.reference com, though the
term 'psychrometer' is -- it's simply a doodad one occasionally
sees whirled through the air (or perhaps air blown across it,
if it's a stationary unit) with two thermometers in it, one
dry, one wet.

There *is* energy associated with evaporation, but it's an
unfortunate usage -- and I still say it won't work in Boston
(90F, 95%-100% humidity) though it might work in Arizona
or Palm Springs. It is also far from clear how well this
device will work with a water feed at the same temperature
as the outside air feed.

One might get better results from a garden-variety mister in
front of the store -- a device, BTW, that is also in common
usage in desert climates.

http://www.idalex.com/applications/MCTC.htm

is a bit odd, in that it uses two coolers -- one to cool the
incoming compressor air (logical enough, since compressors
tend to heat air), and one to cool the compressed air again
before it goes into the turbine, by using the exhausted air
from the turbine. At least, I think that's what they're doing.

The real trick: take the condenser water and use it exclusively.
No fair cheating by borrowing water from the local water supply
(which turns out to be relatively cool) and turning it into
humid water vapor.

As a side issue, this also mentions "60%" as a heat efficiency.
If one assumes a 90 degree F hot outside air temperature, that
translates into 305 K. The theoretical Carnot efficiency of an
engine is

Eff = (t_Hot - t_Cold) / t_Hot

Plugging in:

.60 = (t_Hot - 305) / t_Hot
.60 * t_Hot = t_Hot - 305
0 = t_Hot * .40 - 305
305 = t_Hot * .40
305/.40 = t_Hot = 762.5K = 489C

which would be a very high-pressure boiler indeed.

Even at 0C it wouldn't make that much difference:

273/.40 = t_Hot = 682.5K = 409C

A Google on "high pressure boiler" coughed up, among other things,

http://www.mckenziecorp.com/hurstboiler.htm

which has some peculiar nomenclature -- HP is used frequently,
for example; I'm assuming that means horsepower, which
converts to watts. Makes sense, actually. There's also
the nomenclature '300# steam'. I'm assuming '#' is a
pressure measurement (psi?) but it's not entirely clear.
300 psi = 2.07 megaPascal. Since scuba tanks go up to 3300
PSI or 22.7 megaPascal (albeit at far lower temperatures)
this seems a bit on the low side.

http://www.scuba.com/shop/product.asp_category_131

However, the page refers to other pages, which are
mildly interesting from an industrial standpoint -- there
are also devices to degass the incoming water, for example
(an issue I for one would not have considered, but
presumably dissolved oxygen might do nasty things to high
temperature steam systems).

The critical point for water is 373.946 C or 647.1 K,
and at that temperature the vapor pressure is 22 megaPascal
or 3,190 pounds per square inch. It's not clear to me
what happens at temperatures and pressures above this point,
though the page suggests that there is no phase transition
as such; above that pressure/temperature one gets only
water vapor.

2.07 megaPascal cooresponds to a boiler temperature somewhere
above 200C.

http://www.iapws.org/faq1/boil.htm

It is possible the document is referring to 60% of the
theoretical Carnot efficiency, as opposed to 60%
total fuel energy extraction efficiency.

In conclusion: I don't see it being better than conventional
technologies at this time, without more analysis.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
tj Frazir
2005-03-29 01:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Its fucking stupid.
what retard wrote tat ?
tj Frazir
2005-03-29 01:35:36 UTC
Permalink
The colorado cooler is above 5000 feet idiot.
Run a pipe up 5000 feet and pump air down.
im gona fart ,,itll clear da bridge
erich
2005-03-28 23:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Greg:

They claim to get "wet bulb" temps, and I dought Delphi (a 33 billion
$ corp) would agree to produce it if it did not work.

It's not a "swamp cooler", there is no transfer of moisture to product
air. Althought in high humidity applications , to be most effective,
they must use an additional component for dehumidification, IMHO,
like Honeywell's " Perfect window" desicant wheel ERV. I've have sent
them e-mails to this effect, am waiting for their reply.

They claim to be able to purge all mineral build up, but I do not
believe the "all"part.

I also suggested to them to include a turbulent flow percipitator type
air filter in their design. Like the Netec ACS 2000R, that has a 5
year maintainance cycle,and removes 97% of particles down to 0.1
microns to reduce their units maintainance.

I totaly agree with you about their terminology, "psychrometric" what
a meaningless term, maybe enthalpic is more what they should have
used.

I've posted them your coments and will report back here any answers to
your questions.

Thanks for the feedback, and please e-mail me if you have any other
concerns

Erich
***@aol.com
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tj Frazir
2005-03-29 01:43:44 UTC
Permalink
What feedback and yer full of fucking shit if youthink delphi wants any
of that crap.
what ?? are you nutz ??????
You think your going to put the air on high using what ??????????????
idiot.
take 1 millon btu outside and we'll talk.
water just dont conduct very well.
freon works but water would nead forced more than it could work.
and it would wor too slow.
I want an ice biuld up and that crap your selling wount do the job.
fucking idiot
erich
2005-04-02 03:34:25 UTC
Permalink
The passion ..........my goodness. ...........I'm just reporting on
new technology that Delphi has signed off on...... I don't understand
the need for the vitriol ...........the bad grammar ..and excessive
explatives.

Sincerely,
Erich
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