Discussion:
The new ether of Einstein
(too old to reply)
Giovanni R.
2016-05-04 22:49:59 UTC
Permalink
The New Ether of Einstein

(From the book - Einstein and the ether - of L. Kostro)

The belief that Einstein in his theory of relativity has definitively eliminated the concept of ether by modern physics is very widespread. This opinion is contained in the physics and philosophy handbooks, encyclopedias, textbooks and scientific publications.
However, this description does not reflect at all the historical truth, rather in a major way deforms it.
Einstein primarily considered superfluous the concept of luminiferous ether postulated by Maxwell and also adopted by Poincaré, and all the previous models.
In this sense it is true that until the end of his days he denied the existence of the ether as it was conceived in the nineteenth century.
But after General Relativity, Einstein introduced a new version of relativistic ether, then expressed in three models.
Therefore, the historical truth is that Einstein denied the existence of the ether for eleven years, from 1905 to 1916. Unfortunately this is not said in the University and it's not written in textbooks.

For example, in 1919 he wrote:
"It would have been more correct if in my first publications I were limited me to point out the impossibility of measuring the speed of the ether, instead of mainly support its non-existence. Now I understand that with the word ether we just intend the need to represent space as a carrier of physical properties. >>
(Albert Einstein, in a letter to A. H. Lorentz, 1919)

And in 1920:
"Even if in 1905 I thought physics could be absolutely no talk of ether, this judgment was too radical, as we can see with the next considerations of general relativity. It is then allowed to assume a means colmante in space if one refers to the electromagnetic field and therefore also to the matter. However it is not allowed to attribute to this means a state of motion at each point in analogy with ponderable matter. This ether can not be conceived as consisting of particles. >>
(Albert Einstein, Grundgedanken und Methoden der Relativitätstheorie in ihrer Entwicklung dargestellt, § 13, 1920)

And at University of Leiden, 5 May 1920:
Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of ligh...

The word ether has very old origins, derived from the Greek aither, descending from Sanskrit aidh, and has changed its meaning many times in the development of science. In the nineteenth century were in use simultaneously fourteen different models of ether.
What E. called ether is no longer a separate medium from the space, contained within the space, as were the previous models, but it is precisely the space that, with its - geometrodynamic property - determines the inertial and gravitational behavior of matter.

The speech continues in the site ricercaetereperduto
in Google.

Goodbye

Giovanni R.
Sam Wormley
2016-05-04 23:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Spacetime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that combines space
and time into a single interwoven continuum. Since 300 BCE, the
spacetime of our universe has historically been interpreted from a
Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of
three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the
"fourth dimension". By combining space and time into a single
manifold called Minkowski space in 1905, physicists have
significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well
as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at
both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.
Ether
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ether
Luminiferous aether
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether#End_of_aether.3F
In 1916, after Einstein completed his foundational work on general
relativity, Lorentz wrote a letter to him in which he speculated that
within general relativity the aether was re-introduced. In his
response Einstein wrote that one can actually speak about a "new
aether", but one may not speak of motion in relation to that aether.
This was further elaborated by Einstein in some semi-popular articles
(1918, 1920, 1924, 1930).[A 21][A 22][A 23][A 24][B 11][B 12][B 13]
In 1918 Einstein publicly alluded to that new definition for the
first time.[A 21] Then, in the early 1920s, in a lecture which he was
invited to give at Lorentz's university in Leiden, Einstein sought to
reconcile the theory of relativity with his mentor's cherished
concept of the aether. In this lecture Einstein stressed that special
relativity took away the last mechanical property of Lorentz's
aether: immobility. However, he continued that special relativity
does not necessarily rule out the aether, because the latter can be
used to give physical reality to acceleration and rotation. This
concept was fully elaborated within general relativity, in which
physical properties (which are partially determined by matter) are
attributed to space, but no substance or state of motion can be
attributed to that "aether" (aether = curved space-time).[B 13][A
22][11]
In another paper of 1924, named "Concerning the Aether", Einstein
argued that Newton's absolute space, in which acceleration is
absolute, is the "Aether of Mechanics". And within the
electromagnetic theory of Maxwell and Lorentz one can speak of the
"Aether of Electrodynamics", in which the aether possesses an
absolute state of motion. As regards special relativity, also in this
theory acceleration is absolute as in Newton's mechanics. However,
the difference from the electromagnetic aether of Maxwell and Lorentz
lies in the fact, that "because it was no longer possible to speak,
in any absolute sense, of simultaneous states at different locations
in the aether, the aether became, as it were, four dimensional, since
there was no objective way of ordering its states by time alone.".
Now the "aether of special relativity" is still "absolute", because
matter is affected by the properties of the aether, but the aether is
not affected by the presence of matter. This asymmetry was solved
within general relativity. Einstein explained that the "aether of
general relativity" is not absolute, because matter is influenced by
the aether, just as matter influences the structure of the aether.[A
23]
So the only similarity of this relativistic aether concept with the
classical aether models lies in the presence of physical properties
in space. Therefore, as historians such as John Stachel argue,
Einstein's views on the "new aether" are not in conflict with his
abandonment of the aether in 1905. For, as Einstein himself pointed
out, no "substance" and no state of motion can be attributed to that
new aether. In addition, Einstein's use of the word "aether" found
little support in the scientific community, and played no role in the
continuing development of modern physics
--
sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.
Double-A
2016-05-04 23:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni R.
The New Ether of Einstein
(From the book - Einstein and the ether - of L. Kostro)
The belief that Einstein in his theory of relativity has definitively eliminated the concept of ether by modern physics is very widespread. This opinion is contained in the physics and philosophy handbooks, encyclopedias, textbooks and scientific publications.
However, this description does not reflect at all the historical truth, rather in a major way deforms it.
Einstein primarily considered superfluous the concept of luminiferous ether postulated by Maxwell and also adopted by Poincaré, and all the previous models.
In this sense it is true that until the end of his days he denied the existence of the ether as it was conceived in the nineteenth century.
But after General Relativity, Einstein introduced a new version of relativistic ether, then expressed in three models.
Therefore, the historical truth is that Einstein denied the existence of the ether for eleven years, from 1905 to 1916. Unfortunately this is not said in the University and it's not written in textbooks.
"It would have been more correct if in my first publications I were limited me to point out the impossibility of measuring the speed of the ether, instead of mainly support its non-existence. Now I understand that with the word ether we just intend the need to represent space as a carrier of physical properties. >>
(Albert Einstein, in a letter to A. H. Lorentz, 1919)
"Even if in 1905 I thought physics could be absolutely no talk of ether, this judgment was too radical, as we can see with the next considerations of general relativity. It is then allowed to assume a means colmante in space if one refers to the electromagnetic field and therefore also to the matter. However it is not allowed to attribute to this means a state of motion at each point in analogy with ponderable matter. This ether can not be conceived as consisting of particles. >>
(Albert Einstein, Grundgedanken und Methoden der Relativitätstheorie in ihrer Entwicklung dargestellt, § 13, 1920)
Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of ligh...
The word ether has very old origins, derived from the Greek aither, descending from Sanskrit aidh, and has changed its meaning many times in the development of science. In the nineteenth century were in use simultaneously fourteen different models of ether.
What E. called ether is no longer a separate medium from the space, contained within the space, as were the previous models, but it is precisely the space that, with its - geometrodynamic property - determines the inertial and gravitational behavior of matter.
The speech continues in the site ricercaetereperduto
in Google.
Goodbye
Giovanni R.
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!

Double-A
Sam Wormley
2016-05-04 23:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Double-A
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!
Double-A
Einstein's use of the word "aether" found little support in the
scientific community, and *played no role in the continuing*
*development of modern physics* .

Luminiferous aether
Post by Double-A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether#End_of_aether.3F
In 1916, after Einstein completed his foundational work on general
relativity, Lorentz wrote a letter to him in which he speculated that
within general relativity the aether was re-introduced. In his
response Einstein wrote that one can actually speak about a "new
aether", but one may not speak of motion in relation to that aether.
This was further elaborated by Einstein in some semi-popular articles
(1918, 1920, 1924, 1930).[A 21][A 22][A 23][A 24][B 11][B 12][B 13]
In 1918 Einstein publicly alluded to that new definition for the
first time.[A 21] Then, in the early 1920s, in a lecture which he was
invited to give at Lorentz's university in Leiden, Einstein sought to
reconcile the theory of relativity with his mentor's cherished
concept of the aether. In this lecture Einstein stressed that special
relativity took away the last mechanical property of Lorentz's
aether: immobility. However, he continued that special relativity
does not necessarily rule out the aether, because the latter can be
used to give physical reality to acceleration and rotation. This
concept was fully elaborated within general relativity, in which
physical properties (which are partially determined by matter) are
attributed to space, but no substance or state of motion can be
attributed to that "aether" (aether = curved space-time).[B 13][A
22][11]
In another paper of 1924, named "Concerning the Aether", Einstein
argued that Newton's absolute space, in which acceleration is
absolute, is the "Aether of Mechanics". And within the
electromagnetic theory of Maxwell and Lorentz one can speak of the
"Aether of Electrodynamics", in which the aether possesses an
absolute state of motion. As regards special relativity, also in this
theory acceleration is absolute as in Newton's mechanics. However,
the difference from the electromagnetic aether of Maxwell and Lorentz
lies in the fact, that "because it was no longer possible to speak,
in any absolute sense, of simultaneous states at different locations
in the aether, the aether became, as it were, four dimensional, since
there was no objective way of ordering its states by time alone.".
Now the "aether of special relativity" is still "absolute", because
matter is affected by the properties of the aether, but the aether is
not affected by the presence of matter. This asymmetry was solved
within general relativity. Einstein explained that the "aether of
general relativity" is not absolute, because matter is influenced by
the aether, just as matter influences the structure of the aether.[A
23]
So the only similarity of this relativistic aether concept with the
classical aether models lies in the presence of physical properties
in space. Therefore, as historians such as John Stachel argue,
Einstein's views on the "new aether" are not in conflict with his
abandonment of the aether in 1905. For, as Einstein himself pointed
out, no "substance" and no state of motion can be attributed to that
new aether. In addition, Einstein's use of the word "aether" found
little support in the scientific community, and played no role in the
continuing development of modern physics
--
sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.
Poutnik
2016-05-05 05:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Double-A
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!
Double-A
Yes, but there is a need to add to A also

a B - this new aether had near nothing in common
with the old aether except of the name

a C - this new aether as a term was completely abandoned later.
--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )
Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.
HVAC
2016-05-05 16:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Poutnik Fornntp
Post by Double-A
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!
Double-A
Yes, but there is a need to add to A also

a B - this new aether had near nothing in common
with the old aether except of the name

a C - this new aether as a term was completely abandoned later.
----------

Kooks love ether. For many, many reasons too numerous to mention.
But the bottom line is that ether, much like god, can be treated *exactly* as if it doesn't exist at all.
benj
2016-05-05 18:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVAC
Poutnik Fornntp
Post by Double-A
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!
Double-A
Yes, but there is a need to add to A also
a B - this new aether had near nothing in common
with the old aether except of the name
a C - this new aether as a term was completely abandoned later.
----------
Kooks love ether. For many, many reasons too numerous to mention.
But the bottom line is that ether, much like god, can be treated *exactly* as if it doesn't exist at all.
HVAC kook thinks the "big bang" which he believes in came from "nothing
at all" by "chance". Can you say "Kook"? I knew that you could.
HVAC
2016-05-05 19:02:59 UTC
Permalink
BJ quacked

HVAC kook thinks the "big bang" which he believes in came from "nothing
at all" by "chance". Can you say "Kook"? I knew that you could.
------------

My answer is that 'shit happens'. In other words, I don't know. Some lie and say that they do know. That would be you
benj
2016-05-06 01:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVAC
BJ quacked
HVAC kook thinks the "big bang" which he believes in came from "nothing
at all" by "chance". Can you say "Kook"? I knew that you could.
------------
My answer is that 'shit happens'. In other words, I don't know. Some lie and say that they do know. That would be you
You lie and say you know that I "believe". You don't. You don't have
superpowers nor ESP. You are not a ghost in the wind. You are nothing
but a senile old kook with insufficient blood supply to your brain.

This is a medical FACT verified by you.
Double-A
2016-05-07 00:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVAC
Poutnik Fornntp
Post by Double-A
Yes, "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" is one of my favorite Einstein quotes!
Double-A
Yes, but there is a need to add to A also
a B - this new aether had near nothing in common
with the old aether except of the name
a C - this new aether as a term was completely abandoned later.
----------
Kooks love ether. For many, many reasons too numerous to mention.
But the bottom line is that ether, much like god, can be treated *exactly* as if it doesn't exist at all.
The gods breathed aether, drank ambrosia, and ichor flowed throw their veins. You have a problem with that?

Double-A

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